Ok Oh: So, you practice Tai Chi.
Daniel: I practice Tai Chi but, um, not just like as a health and spiritual thing but because you can kick people's ass with Tai Chi.
(laughter)
Ok Oh: My friend uh, my friend um, Luke's father has been practicing Tai Chi for years and years and years. And Luke, Luke swears that when his father, uh, kind of, condenses his energy, or whatever he does, um, that it is impossible to move him.
Daniel: Uh-huh.
Ok Oh: Impossible, and if he wishes, he can . . .basically fling Luke across the room, or something like that. . .
Daniel: Yeah.
Ok Oh: . . .and I have always been, I, uh, I don't really take Luke as a liar so I've always been really super into, into that whole idea.
Daniel: Oh well yeah, so let's try it.
Ok Oh: Oh really? Ok! Great.
(stepping away from the microphone. The next part of the interview is conducted standing several feet from the microphone)
Daniel: Ok, I'll show you, I'll show you an easy way to demonstrate that.
Ok Oh: Okay.
Daniel: If somebody, so that you can do it, if somebody grabs you this way. . .
(Daniel places his hands across my wrists palms down, holding on just below my hands)
Ok Oh: Right.
Daniel: And you wanna like, what do you normally want to do? Like, how do you get out of this?
Ok Oh: This? I would go like. . .that?
(I move my hands in a small circular motion to the inside of his arms)
Daniel: That's. . .that's good. But . . .
Ok Oh: But then I'd try and. . .
(I try to grab his wrists the same way from my position)
Daniel: Right, so good, so if you get someone like this, so let's go this way. . .
Ok Oh: (to the microphone) I'm holding his arms. (in the same fashion he first held mine) He was just holding my arms.
(laughing)
Daniel: Ok so then we go. . .
(somehow, Daniel pushes forward with surprising little effort, moving his arms slightly up, taking me entirely off balance and pushing me back a couple meters.)
Ok Oh: Oh right! yeah yeah yeah.
(now several more feet from the microphone)
Daniel: I basically walk (lock?) into you. . . like that. . . (indistinguishable shuffling and wood creaking noises and some far off laughter)
Ok Oh: Right and then you got me all in a different weight. . .
Daniel: That's uh, that's like a simple . . .
Ok Oh: Yeah.
(walking back to the table)
Daniel: You could use more subtle ways, like uh. . .I'm not great at it, there's a guy in China. . .
Ok Oh: But I always like, when I see Tai Chi I always see like guys, you know, like kind of centering their energies and that all I know. (making motions like the old ladies in Chinatown parks)
Daniel: Yeah, that's not an application, that's just in practice so. . . so in general, there's a kind of practice in which can be either soft like kind of (indistinguishable word) . . .or it can be hard, but it's more about finding a real quick release (?) one is, one is like (sounds of movements, I am pushing and grabbing at Daniel while he fluidly keeps my arms and grabs at bay without moving his feet) okay, the other way is when you feel like, when I push you, you feel my center and try to (indistinguishable word) another is to feel your own center. . . when someone pushes you, you feel (indistinguishable word) so when I push you, you feel your center. . .
Ok Oh: Moving form left to right, that sort of thing?
Daniel: Try doing it with your feet static.
(more sounds of movement)
Ok Oh: Okay.
Daniel: Just feel it when you turn. . .right so a better thing. . .is to simplify also.
Ok Oh: Right so to always keep moving, but keep my feet static.
(we face each other pushing our arms in semi-circular motions at each other, Daniel stays relatively still, while I have a hard time, struggling not to shuffle my weight and feet side to side)
Daniel: It's about mostly holding a line.
Ok Oh: Right. . .right. . .okay (I don't really get it, and am struggling)
Daniel: So it's mostly about either the front or the back. . .
("aaagh" laughter, some physical commotion, at his point I go far to my right while Daniel remains still)
Ok Oh: (in the direction of the microphone) Alright, he just knocked me over.
(laughter)
Daniel: Yeah, you're pretty strong actually, you're not a push over . . .
(he actually said that, probably for my sake, knowing we were recording)
Ok Oh: So, yeah, so you keep, you're doing that by like , you keep your mid line really straight, but you're moving, you're keeping a lot of, like the tension in your arms is pretty strong.
Daniel: Yeah so most of the stuff. . .
Ok Oh: So where does that strength come from?
Daniel: . . Tai Chi is from your ligaments, its not very muscular, feel my arms, they're like nothing. . .
Ok Oh: Right. (feel his arms, spindly, not overly muscular)
Daniel: (indistinguishable talking) . . .so when you push me like this, it's like you are pushing the ground. . .(loud banging of cleaning lady, indistinguishable talk). . .so if you push really hard. . .
Ok Oh: Right, I can't really move you.
Daniel: Well, I'm just showing you a little, I mean I'm not good enough. . . there are some people . . .
Ok Oh: Well sure, plus you're not like, Luke says his father takes a second and like calms his whole body down. . .
Daniel: Right. . .
Ok Oh: . . .and does a whole thing . . .
Daniel: But the more scary thing, which is probably not even. . .You know, Bruce Lee has that one inch punch? Is there is like a zero. . .I can't do it myself. . .there's a zero inch punch, like they can whip, like a force, cracking whip (points to his abdomen and hips) circulating down here and back out through here (through his fist which lays gently right up against on my chest) . . .
Ok Oh: Yeah.
Daniel: It feels like a jack hammer going through you.
Ok Oh: No way.
Daniel: They can either send it through you, past you, or they can send it . . .
Ok Oh: So it bounces around. . .
Daniel: So it hits an organ and . . .
Ok Oh: So that's that whole Kung Fu thing. . .
(we return to our seats)
Daniel: That's the whole. . .
Ok Oh: And you know I saw Kung Fu Panda this weekend.
Daniel: Yep.
Ok Oh: Which was fantastic.
(laughter)
Daniel: (laughing) That's a great movie!
Ok Oh: I really enjoyed that film. So, do you practice everyday?
Daniel: Uh. . .no. I should but I . . .
Ok Oh: Do you do the thing where you go, like do you have the whole forms. . .
Daniel: I went to two schools. . .
Ok Oh: How many modalities are there? or forms. ..
Daniel: . . .or actually three schools. . .
Ok Oh: Yeah.
Daniel: There are, there are a lot, it's a lot of different. . .you know, it's several hundred years old, and then Chinese martial arts are over two thousand years old. . .
Ok Oh: Yeah.
Daniel: So there's like, five different major schools, but even in the same school it can be practiced very differently.
Ok Oh: So Chinese martial arts actually came before Tai Chi.
Daniel: Yeah.
Ok Oh: Why did Tai Chi develop?
Daniel: Tai Chi developed, I guess. . .
Ok Oh: Like through what form?
Daniel: There's uh, the legend is that there's a Shaolin monk named Zong Zong Fun (phonetic spelling) who uh, developed it in Wudong (phonetic spelling) Mountain. And supposedly he saw like a mongoose and a snake. . .no, it was like a certain kind of bird and a snake fighting and from that he derived all these principles of Tai Chi. Which later on...
Ok Oh: Who won?
Daniel: Oh I don't think either one won. . .
Ok Oh: Oh they were just going back and forth. . .
Daniel: Yeah they each had their own technique. . . and then he developed these thirteen kind of postures and later on it got refined into one hundred and eight fluid form. . .it's just done slow
so that you can align yourself but the idea is that like the force is very sudden.
Ok Oh: Right.
Daniel: Or, there's also a form of Tai Chi where the force, it's like magic, you don't even know what moved you. Like I pushed this, he's probably a seventy year old, round, fat, short, albino Chinese master in Beijing who had been in a car accident to he limps, you'd never guess this guy is a martial artist, but you know, not just me, but some of my other classmates, who are really big, really strong, he pushed them and all of a sudden it's like (Daniel makes his arms float in air) gravity turned off, and you're just floating in another direction. (laughter) you don't even know what moved you. . .(laughter). . .you don't even know exactly like, I'm not holding that tight, but how come I'm moving you know?
Ok Oh: Wow.
Daniel: I still don't know how he moved me.
Ok Oh: No kidding. And are you, do you have a school now?
Daniel: Yeah.
Ok Oh: And you, and how often do you go to do like. . .
Daniel: Well, the main teacher is in China right now doing a meditation retreat. .
Ok Oh: Mm-hmm
Daniel: . . .but uh, so right now it's three of us who are teaching, so I'm instructing right now.
Ok Oh: Mm-hmm
Daniel: But we only have a few students. It's not too organized, but it's Tai Chi Zen dot com.
Ok Oh: Tai Chi Zen dot com.
Daniel: Yeah.
Ok Oh: Cool.
Daniel: Yeah put that, put a little. . .
Ok Oh: Oh yeah! It's gonna be on there, yeah. Um, so do. . .in the school do you just go to the park instruct in the park or do you have. . .
Daniel: We rent a space yeah. . .and. . .
Ok Oh:. . .space. . .here in the city. . .
Daniel: . . like near Union Square. . .
Ok Oh:. . .near Union Square. . .
Daniel: . . .and my apartment. . .
Ok Oh: And what do you generally start out with when you do that, do you start out with the different. . .
Daniel: You start out with, um. . .
Ok Oh: . . .the forms. . .
Daniel: You start out with understanding like the inner structure of your body like what, there a different way to, kind of uh, I guess your inner structure is different in Tai Chi so you look at yourself as a, like a geometry or an architecture of bones connected by your joints and your ligaments. . .
Ok Oh: Right.
Daniel: . . .and especially in, around your hips and your lower back, instead of (rising out of chair) arching your back, like this. . .
Ok Oh: Yeah.
Daniel: You tuck.
Ok Oh: Right.
Daniel: And the reason you tuck is so that the force pulling down goes down through your legs into the earth.
Ok Oh: Yeah, that's the same thing in, well, my wife is a Pilates teacher and that's her, it's the same, it's the same idea, yeah.
Daniel: So you should. . .so. . .
Ok Oh: So you sit, you sit like this, which you are sitting on your sit bones. . .
Daniel: Yeah.
Ok Oh: You know, so that you're not like this (arching back) or like this (hunching back) but you're like straight aligned. . .
Daniel: Yeah, so when you're, if you, if you stand up I'll show you. . . you start by using a wall. . . (we move over to the wall) we'll start by using this wall and flattening your lower back against it, so just like press, especially around the kidney area, expand your lower back into the wall and at the same time soften the whole front line, especially here (points at my sternum) this part just relaxes totally. . . even more. . .yeah this is where you are really tight. . . .try not to heavy breath, just breath naturally, almost like you're sleeping . . .that's better, yeah. . .and also here (points to just below my left shoulder) this part is tight usually. Just relax at that point. So the combination of the relaxing the front line and that feeling back here (points to my lower back) . . .even more right here. . .yeah. . .you can wiggle into it.
Ok Oh: Then you just kind of concentrate on. . .
Daniel: So that, that reverse. . .that's the first structural thing you have to learn how to do. You can develop that just by doing standing practices like this (starts to do the old lady in a China Town park thing) or this, and some like, more extreme poses that you can do (strikes a pose that looks not very extreme, right arm out to the side in the air, left foot planed very firmly in the ground) um, and then the other thing is how to activate your outer tendons. So normally we're pretty straight on our feet but in Tai Chi we want to be able to have, to actually activate the outer tendons. . .of you go down like this (goes into a squat, grabs feet just below his ankles) and hold your ankles. . .
Ok Oh: Mm-hmm
Daniel: . . .you can open your ankles out while still keeping your feet in, and bend your knees too, and put your knee, put your elbows to the inside of your knees. . .
Ok Oh: Mm-hmm
Daniel: . . .so if you do that you can feel like your outer ankle and the outer tendons in your legs in line, try to keep that going. . .
(Ken walks by, "You guys know how to work," Daniel laughs)
Ok Oh: Yeah.
Daniel: So that, so it's a little like the feeling of when you are doing any sport when you are like. . .
Ok Oh: But I'm feeling it in here too (pointing to my inner thighs) is that. . . ?
Daniel: Yeah, that's, that's okay. . .
Ok Oh: Is that alright?
Daniel: Yeah, but it's more on the outside, the force is on the outer thighs. . .(goes into a tall squat, points to thighs)
Ok Oh: Oh yeah, okay I can get it right here but. . .and I guess in the end you don't want to be feeling it in your muscles at all you just wanna have that. . .
Daniel: Well you need muscles, but it's the idea, it's more like the way you balance yourself while you're standing. . .
Ok Oh: Right.
Daniel: So uh. . .
Ok Oh: Interesting.
Daniel: So there's a certain amount of like, we learn how to just . . .
(Peter Johnson pages Daniel over the intercom, Daniel goes to the phone)
Ok Oh: (to the microphone) I think that's the end of the interview, Daniel has to go to work, actually, so do I.
(microphone switches off)
This is actually the second part of a longer interview. The first part, where Daniel talked about some of his professional origins (Bay Area bred, designer, computer coder, New York for 15 years) including his Edit Monkey software, was hardly as much fun as this second part (for me anyhow) as this is the first physically interactive interview I have done for Ok Oh.
I think I am far more knowledgeable about my abundant weaknesses for it.
To read more about Daniel's Tai Chi school click here. To watch a beautiful short film that Daniel made about some Kung Fu disciplines, click here.
Later in the afternoon, Daniel sent me this link and this link about the standing training of Tai Chi.
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